Like what's, you know, he's like I'm like look John I, you know, I actually told him look I don't want to I don't want to I don't want to um cancel anything out. You know I'll just leave my options open, you know, I didn't say no we're finished. Well, you know, do you have any visual ideas? I said no not not right now but I'd like to keep the door open in case I do have some visual ideas. John agreed. The book shouldn't go the book should not be displayed in the gallery. I totally agreed. A book is a book. He was cool about it. We'll sell it. We'll promote it. We'll have a party if you want. You know, he's got a lot of calls from the article people asking where's the book? But I said, you know, I said, you know, he said well what about, you know, do you have any visual ideas. Not right now but then I said oh I'm working on this piece. And I just start spinning these visual equivalents of what I could do. And I thought that was actually a really a neet a neet idea like if I take all the clumps of raw language and and, you know, and what is how much is the equivalent of it translated into different things, you know, like like how many jellybeans are in the jar kind of thing. Each jellybean represents a word that we a word, you know, and here's the week's worth of words. I don't know it could go up go up to the ceiling, you know, or it could just just fill this glass with drops from this eyedropper. You know, like translating all this raw material that I'm speaking right now into, you know, into equivalents. I actually thought it was a really interesting idea. Kind of neat, huh? Or if I printed them all on a page, I'd probably have a stack. I mean, it would make everybody realize how much garbage they speak. How cheap language is, you know. So I said to John like, yeah I don't really have any ideas now but I said look, I just want to keep the door open, you know. I said you guys, you know, look I'm not really looking for any gallery work I'm not looking for any other gallery I'm not looking to sell anything I'm not looking to have a conventional career as an artist. But if I decide to do something visual again and something that'll fit a gallery and he said well we'd like to support you. Which was really nice, you know, it made me think yet, you know, if I ever if I have ideas like, you know, like putting drops in drops of water into a glass, you know, six hundred million drops of water how much, you know, that might be a really nice piece and it might really, you know, look good in a gallery. You know, why not? You know? So, I don't know I just said look let's leave the door open. Oh we had lunch we had breakfast at Noho Star for about an hour and a half. Ah, I didn't really ask. He just listened to me. We talked about it. He's pissed that I didn't go to the opening of the Jewish Museum and his point was look, if you agreed to participate in the piece then you've got to go. It's OK not to go if you say you're not going to be in it but you can't have it both ways, you know, the minute you you the minute, you know, you really decide to do something just do it. You have to do it. You have to show up. And actually it was it was, you know, an alright point. No, I I, you know, I said look, I'm real conflicted, you know. On one hand I like the idea that I'm in that show. I like the idea that the, you know, image is all over the place. It's fine. Who wouldn't like it? On the other hand I don't like the context. I think it's, you know, I think it's a really bad context and John's like you shouldn't have done the show. I said right. I'm I'm divided. I cause I did do the show I did say it's OK to do the show. John says if you do the show you've got to do the stuff that goes with the show. He says I don't mind if you don't do the show if you don't want to do it. But don't don't... you know, he said don't embarrass me don't embarrass yourself, you know, either shit or get off the pot with those things in terms of commitments for the future, you know. So, I mean, John he's a good guy John. We may be going our separate ways, you know? I mean it's pretty clear we are in some ways, you know, he's a good guy and I think his values are are good and, you know, I don't really have much of a, you know, problem with that and I like the idea that the door is open. You know, I don't know what I'm going to do with all this language. Maybe I'll make a visual equivalent of it. Maybe I'll make, you know? I just don't know. But I like the idea that the door is open. I mean, I'm not gonna look for a hotter gallery. I mean, you know, if I want to show some shit in a gallery I'll I'll he's there he's there to do it whether he stays in business is another matter but he's there to do it, you know? Oh so, then he came back to the then he came back to the office I showed him some Internet stuff he said oh I want to go to this place called artnetweb, right? So we went to artnetweb and we start and they've got all the shows listed with a picture so we looked your show up. This is a different site than artweb. This called art...yeah. No this is art net web dot com. So we looked and and and and we pulled John's show. Anyway we pulled up your show at Basilico. And it's got a picture of the video oh no no! I'm sorry. It's got a picture it's got a picture of either I can't remember what it was we were really moving through things fast and then, you know, it's got a description about your piece and then it says comments click here for gab and people can comment on the shows. So so we went to your gab section on. There's one comment there. There's one person commented on your show. It said Cheryl Donegan rocks my world. You know who it was signed by? Colleen Trimble! Colleen found it on the web somehow! There was no other comments. Only Colleen! It cracked me up! I mean I was like she didn't even tell us when she said that. I was just like I read it and I said whoa! Somebody really liked Cheryl then I read it and it says Colleen Trimble. You're you're so red yeah. OK, let's get more more booze though I'm I'm getting a second wind with the hair of the dog. I have I guess this day is trashed. Can I have more white wine? Want another? Sure. Let me see how much time I have left on my tape. Is Betsy with her friends? Is Betsy with her friends? Hi Jay. How ya doin'? Nice review Friday. Both of you. Congratulations to both of you. Yeah. Congratulations to both. You I've congratulated you I haven't. That was terrific. No me. Not usually. Have you seen Cheryl's show? She has a show at Stefano Basilico now. Far out. Wow. Very good. So you live in Singapore. So how's that? Fun? It's hot like hell. Have you every been to The Jurong Bird Park? The Jurong Bird Park? It's very famous. I met no those are those crazy girls I met in India and one of them worked at the Jurong Bird Park and I actually went out and saw it on the Internet once. Yeah. Do you have Internet? Does your gallery have Internet? I'm not an artist she is so you she can she's she's the person. Cheryl write your name on the... Do you read this? You don't read it at all? Is it Chinese? You're not you're not learning Chinese any time soon. No I saw the Jurong Bird Park on the Internet so it'd be good to see your gallery on the Internet. I will. I'll look it up. We're gonna look it up. John John had a show with you? Tom Wessleman. That's the toothpick. We're familiar we're familiar with this work. Yeah, he's famous. Is this, oh, this is a crazy typeface. Did you make these in Singapore? You made these in Singapore? Cheryl has a show of painting and video. Where does Tom Wessleman live? The beach? Wait wait wait! I want to look at the back back matter. This is beautiful. Is this U.S. or Singapore dollars? What is the dollar equivalent to Singapore... Are you visiting artist's studios? She's right here. She's right here in Manhattan. She's a Biennial artist. She was in the last Biennial. No no I'm not. I can say I can say anything. No, Cheryl's very Cheryl's very famous. She really is, no, really young artist's studio visit... Thank you. Darling. I won't hike but I like the cold weather. Wanna switch? If you hate the cold weather why don't you come to to New York in July in August? No no I mean have you been in New York in August? Now now that's hot weather. I was in India but I thought New York in the summer was much worse. India's nothing... Even hotter, right. So why do you live there? Come to New York for a challenge. Really? No no no no no. That's not true. Isn't the isn't the guy in India. This is Asia. This is Asia proper. I have no idea. Oh, that's nothing. Ah, it's nothing! This is terrific. No actually it's amazing that you're the only only contemporary art dealer... There's nothing in Thailand? OK, nice to talk to you. Go see her show. I sure do. Bye, nice to meet you. Yeah, I don't think so. Cheryl was at Art Omi but go ahead. But Eric is not extremely verbal. Oh tell, tell. But Peter's work is so much more interesting like a million times eclectic subject matter. Let's just dish, let's go. Yeah but all those artists are saying something. I don't think Eric is really has anything to say. But I like I like reading Ruth Reichel's reviews. I think they're fun to read and and you know it's another field altogether. It's another field I like her reviews. I think they're rich. Just admiring her child. Hi. Alright. When is her baby coming? When is her baby due? You know Cheryl was at Yale with her. That can be good and that can be bad. No, that can be good and that can be bad. Really? Congratulations. That's wonderful Jay. Congratulations. Are a godfather of any other child? This is not this is not a Jewish thing. I'm not a godfather. It's never been brought up in my context. You you know godfathers and godmothers. This is something I know nothing about. This is nothing I've ever heard of growing up. I've never...well I heard of it but it's not not part of... congratulations, this is very good. Who's your godparents? Oh you you too. Who are they? Who is your godparents Jay? Will you give the child a good religious upbringing? That's our religion, isn't it? Cheryl got the idea when she heard Jessica she'd like to go. Wow! Do you do you live here in the city? And you're raising your children in the city? That's great great idea. What a great place to grow up. I wish I grew up here. I went to Camp Walt Whitman. Long Island. You grew up in Brooklyn? Where? Do you have family there still? It was a Workman's it was a yes it was. It was a gay Workman's Circle... I used to feel I used to feel so embarrassed when kids used to say I went to, like, Tamarac and Camp Na Sho Pa and I'd be like I went to Camp Walt Whitman. It was all about poetry. More or less yeah. Yeah it was great. It was Workman's Circle. It was it was very Leftist very Leftist very radical camp, yeah. Where did you go, Jay? What was the name. C'mon. Oh, that could be fun. That could be fun. That could be... So where do you live in the city. Yeah. On fifteenth. Oh I wish I grew up in the city I you know. I'm a generation removed. My parents grew up in Brooklyn. Everybody else moved out to the Island. Exactly. My grandparents live in Cedarhurst. Wait my aunt and uncle in in Great Neck. I'm from Port Washington which is between Great Neck and Roslyn, you know. Deb and I are like from Rockville Centre she's like my big sister. I do too. I say the same thing. She's from Rockville Center. That's where my whole family is from. Avenue D, oh boy. She's buried in Cypress Hills now. That's where my whole family has their plot in Cypress Hills Cemetery. Back back back to the old neighborhood. Yeah. Where where did you grow up? I I I'm a DJ at a radio station in East Orange. Oh, you like FMU, good. Is an FMU junkie? Oh you guys... I go out I go out to FMU every week to do a show. I'm glad I'm glad you're a listener. Late night late night show. Oh I talk about the music I play mostly. It's the best it's the best station in the world. There's nothing like it. Where's your where's your husband? Who's your husband? Oh, I know Billy I do know Billy. I'm surprised I don't know you... Billy is Al Ruppersberg's friend. Sure Al and I Al and I live next door to each other. Oh I didn't know that she was Billy's. Got it got it got it got it. I didn't know you were Billy's wife and I know. Got it. Forget. Al is like Al is like our big we call him Uncle Al. Al is our uncle Deb is our big sister. Well you work with all so it's a different story but Al is Uncle Al to us. Right. You want more wine? Tape three testing. Monday April fifteenth. Hey. How ya' doin'? Hi honey. Are you going to adaweb afterwards? No no the party the party afterwards. I think it should be fun. I think it should be fun. I'm going. I'm going. Yeah I think it will be fun. I'm gonna go with you guys cause she's she's gotta teach. It was horrible. Boog's birthday party. Oh I couldn't I couldn't try it was horrible. Oh Alix! We shouldn't smoke pot or anything. God forbid, Alix! When did you become? Well it didn't work too well last night. Honey! Maybe, but we would have been too sleepy to... Oh it was it was the most disgusting shit I ever tasted. No it doesn't. It's really bitter. It tastes horrible. Yeah our friend makes it every year it's a bummer. Every year he says it's getting better and every year I try it and it's worse. Yes. Well we bought. No. Well we bought them... Alix, it's a bummer. Well that's Boog, that's Boog, yeah. You never met Boog after all these years you never met Boog? This is a guy I've I've been friends with since eighth grade. I've never lost touch with him we're dear friends. Oh, he's ridiculous. He hates living in this age. He wants to live in the forties. Yeah. Look at Meyer's dog. What's the name? Tanya? Tanya! Tanya! Hi Meyer how ya doin'? How ya doin'? Tanya! Hi Tanya. What's up with the dog? Did she take a shit on the floor. Cheryl did you say hi to Tanya and Meyer. When she shit on the floor that's why I said that. Kenny. Hi how ya' doin'? Did she shit on the floor. We were gonna bring Babette tonight but we heard Tanya was gonna show up so we didn't. Congratulations on your show. You two you review stars. Whatever. Both of you whatever. Hey so I in Caracas. Right. For Monica's show. It's a rough place, man. Whoa! Are you from Caracas? Oh, New York is lovely. New York is like a small town compared to Caracas. Oh it's like a country village here. Oh my god. The cabbies are the rough are rough too but they said to me. They put us in this shithole downtown, right? Next to the government center in this really terrible place downtown and the cabbies were like yeah downtown, the cabby's like run run run run don't stay out here. I mean, it's so rough, man, it's a really mean place. Right. Well we went to Monica's apartment. When we went there there were people with guns pointed at us. The guards had guns and they knew Monica... No, I'm trying to shock you go they knew Monica and they still pointed a gun at her! Monica's like it's OK it's OK, you know, we live here, you know... Very wealthy. She lives in a very wealthy neighborhood too it's like, man, guns in your face everywhere it was like yo this is serious. Compared to Bogota. That I that I can almost believe. No thank you thank you. I've had enough. And the city's ugly, man, the city's...yeah the parents were nice but the city the city is just... I mean it's just so... all this cast concrete and... Yeah. It was really. I was there for ten days at the Museo de Bellas Artes. No I was in a show there. The show that Monica Amor... she says that there's a catalog coming. Right that's what she said. The catalog... The people I met, OK, the people in the very upper... OK you met the people in the around the museum who were in the upper class. Really nice. The people were really cool really chic really nice the people who lived on the top of the hills inside the city. Yeah. I'm sure you must know these people that Monica knows. Jamie. Yeah. Yeah. Had a big party had a big party in this beautifully chic chic place. And then I also thought the food was really good. The food was wonderful. But they was other than that, man, I was so glad I was no I didn't get to the beach. Where did you work there? Were you working at the museum or something cultural? Were you where did you get the money? What was your job? Cause I knew all these people we meet all these people working in the theater there across from the museum. Yeah in the opera. We met all all of these people who were working in the opera. I mean it was. You know, if the, you know, the the... the sort of upper class thing is great but the class division is really harsh. Really harsh. No. The people gave us money when we came there. But of course it was worth nothing when we came here. So I just gave it I gave the whole thing to somebody. Somebody who's who's father was really sick. I didn't know her but I was like take my money. Yeah. Who worked in the opera. She had no money I was like to pay for the funeral I was like here take my money. They gave us so much money. There was nothing there that I really wanted, you know, you know... I went to I went to the flea markets. I bought records underneath the highway, you know, the books the records are under the highway. I bought a bunch or records, you know. Yeah, but actually they were about the same price as they were here. It was really sad, man. Caracas really was a drag. Man it was mean. Oh, it's lovely here, you know? So have you shown in the contemporary museum there? Like everybody everybody has, right? Right. Right. We were there when there was like a South American biennial. I don't remember the name. I was there in October right after you moved. Maybe yeah maybe. There was a thousand artists in it. Yeah. So, what are you doing here in New York. Yeah. Cheryl used to teach there, yeah. So you have a studio there and you're like there? Are you there through uh through uh are you there through a miracle or are you there through Venezuela? Oh, you're the Venezuelan artist. She put her she put her time in. Fuck you. Look at Sonia's Sonia's tail. Sonia! Sonia! Awww, we all go awwww. Let's give her some cheese. Sit! Sit! Good girl! God I never met a dog that that... Do you do know Monica Amor. She's nice. In Venezuela. Yeah Monica's crazy, you know, yeah in a good way. Yeah. Yeah. It's her own world. I saw Michelle White at the MOMA Bookstore today. So Cheryl has a show at Stefano Basilico now. Jerry. Jerry I saw you Sunday you had a beard! There's Jerry he shaved his beard. Testing. Testing. I just wasn't made for these times song going now. Yeah. Oh, I'm burning out. I had a breakfast appointment, a lunch appointment, and now this and then I have to go to adaweb and I'm I'm burning. And I I was drunk at one o'clock this afternoon at lunch. Yeah it really is unusual. I had lunch with a with a literary critic that I know and... hey thanks for your call. Thanks for you call. Three artist article. Three artist article. So, do you guys want to go get a bite to eat after this? Cheryl's gotta go, uh, she's got class. I've got a ten dollar Casio. What have you got? They're great. I lose them I lose them I don't mind. Yeah. So what do you guys want to do? I'll I'll I don't know how much I'll eat but I'll sit with you. You want to slip over to Chinatown? Yeah. Yeah. And then we'll go over to adaweb. Grazie grazie. God do you know a year ago we went to John's opening? Exactly. Yeah. I asked him. Yeah. We went to see, uh, the Satyajit Ray films. Remember? Remem yeah of course. Yeah, you gonna go tomorrow night up there? Yeah cuz I'm I'll probably go up there I'll go to Vedanta because they have a Tuesday night thing and then I've got to go out to the radio station for late night. So, I'm gonna be kind of there. Let remind Cheryl that she's gotta be where she's gotta be in in in fifteen minutes. You've gotta be where you've gotta be in fifteen minutes. Yeah. Five minutes. Sonia thinks we have food for her. Meyer is it all about food? Is it all about food? No no no no. You are maintaining her lifestyle. You provide for her. OK Alix wants to say goodbye. Give us some real food. Give us arepa. Alright. Have a good time. When does it end? See ya. Come speak to Alix she's gotta say goodbye to you. Do it. Do it. I'll go with you. Hey guys. You look exhausted. You don't look bad but you look like you've just come in No, you look like you've yes. Roberta you look... He shaved the beard. How does she look? I'm just, yeah. She just walked in. She just walked in I go, you look exhausted! Are you guys going this summer? You guys got it again? You did. When are you going? Nice work. You're going again. We'll we'll we'll make sure to see you. We will. Good, I'm glad you got it again. Ay get out of here Donegan. OK. Do your. Do your thing. I'll see you soon. See you later. Am I gonna see you at ada? Wait, do you have the address? Do it. All right. What do you say? Do it. Where do you guys wanna go? I like them all. I'm not that that ravenously hungry. Yeah. I'm not ravenous. Yeah, I don't care care to know her. Yeah. That's weird. That's weird. I don't like that kind of writing. If it's a bestseller I couldn't care less. It's not interesting. No I'm not in really it's another world. It's really it's really another world in what I'm involved with. I mean I don't read fiction first of all, unless it's ninetieth century. Let's say fiction doesn't apply to this century so... Shall we go? Where's Cheryl? Maybe we can all walk out together. Did she go this way? C'mon let's go get her. Bye. See you around. Kenny. See you around. We will. Wait we're come we're walking out with you. Take it. What is it just one of those leather coats? Take a take a nice one. Go ahead. Feel this coat. Alix is gonna just to upgrade. Alix is gonna upgrade on her coat to something nicer. No no let's rifle through the pockets and get Alix let's rifle through the pockets and get money for dinner. Who's? Nice pair of glasses. They won't fit. Sure. Yes.