Do you do you know Sun & Moon Press in L.A. I mean he he does a lot of good stuff. Have you been to his bookstore ever? Reading? I mean he, Douglas is a great place to start. He's a good guy, if you go in there he's really friendly and you just ask what you just asked me or tell him that you know me and Douglas will send you out with a stack of amazing experimental writing. I mean, it's like really where I'm living these days, you know, in that world. I mean Geoff Young published a lot of that stuff too over the years. Uh, well, I know Michael, he put me in that show that he did out in some college–it was about language and then he sent me his book which was just excellent. Yeah yeah. It's, uh, I forget what it's called now I have it at home and I have it I I think it's terrific. And we were corresponding for a while then we sort of lost touch I don't know what Michael's up to these days. What's he what's he doing? I mean he's an artist as well? He sounds like an interesting guy. Uh huh. He wrote a nice essay he put together a really nice show somewhere out in California a few years ago and, uh, yeah so. Yeah, oh yeah, really. Tell Douglas you sent me he's he's a great guy to know. He's the boyfriend of Howard Fox, right. I mean they're, you know, he's great I mean I I don't know Howard at all. Yeah, well Douglas is not a jerk and he's nice. Maybe I don't know what ________________ he is. I know Douglas well enough. That's a, yeah, that's really obscure shit. My life has become, you know, strangely involved in very, um, interesting difficult marginal, you know, small audience stuff. It's totally what I love. I have no choice. I've met some good people, you know, it's it's kind of nice, it seems OK. Now, um, what time is it? So, are you on the Internet much? You don't have you have...? Yeah. Yeah. No. Your work would great, though, on the web. I I'm yeah, no, I'm actually running a visual poetry site and, um, geez, why don't I just can I scan some of the photos that you've given me a while back we were gonna do that thing with Lois that never worked out? Can I just scan some of those and put them up? Yeah? You wouldn't mind? Oh, that would be great. I could, like, choose four or five of them? Why, yeah, I'd like to do that. Yeah I have this this site, aw they give us some they give us some space at the radio station to have, you know, a home page and well I have all my friends and some people that I don't know on this visual poetry site. Yeah. Yeah yeah. I mean, it's a bit of a pain in the ass, I mean I just kind of a little time consuming and I get a lot of garbage that I don't care for. Yeah, then you have to go then you have to go in. Yeah. Yeah, it is time consuming. Ha ha ha. Well, I'll email you it. You gave me it on the on the card on the letter it's something... at AOL. Where's she? What ever happened to her? It seems like you could do all you could do all your work on the computer now, I mean, with what you know. She's bizarre. She was in New York for a while running a gallery. It did pretty well for a while and then faded. I don't know what happened to her. How's that book that you I was just looking at your book, um, yesterday actually. It was a little it was a little what was it four by four or something? Yeah yeah I like that. Yeah yeah no, listen, I mean it's just a small, I mean, you've been working on the screen enough with your job stuff that it's just a small leap, you know, to understanding how a web page works or a, uh, you know, reading screen to screen, you know, it's just a matter of learning the vocabulary something that you're familiar with obviously you're producing these really high quality books. You wanna do this stuff yourself you gotta I guess you got to get yourself a Power Mac and a scanner. You have get another, right, you have to get Netscape and everything. Is that big in L.A. the web? It's like T.V., it's like gonna come T.V. soon, you know, it's weird. It's like, OK, it's do it yourself T.V. I think sort of. OK. Uh, Cheryl and I are going to do a performance in a gallery in Athens in Greece and we're going we're going in the middle of May to do that and we're spending Memorial Day Weekend with her family in Las Vegas. It will be sort of weird. Well, it's sort of a family we're going to go from like the Acropolis to Caesar's Palace in. And then, uh, she's got some connections in France so I think the for July and August we're going to go to Beaujolais and live in a chateau of, uh, kind of a place for artists to go and I'm just gonna write out there. So, yeah, I haven't traveled at all but it looks like we're gonna be doing a bit of traveling in the next few months glad to get out of New York for the summer, yeah. Who's that? Something. Oh, wow, you're gonna go to Banff? A residency? I've done that. Cheryl and I did that in the summer of '85. We were there for three months. How long would you go for? What is that, I mean, what do you do? I mean is it like there right now? They pay for you to go and all that? Yeah, we got to go for free. I'm glad they're still doing that, yeah, it was good. It was a great deal. Yeah, you meet good people. People we met there we still know it's a long, it's eleven years ago already. Oh, it's a trip man, you'll love it, you'll really love it. Definitely do it. Well, you'll see. It's great. It's great. No, it's incredible. We were there in the summer, you know, it was amazing I mean fucking amazing, totally. That was really neat. So, that sounds great it sounds really good. Banff is fun. Oh yeah? Yeah. In a funny way, yeah. Yeah, you know who is involved in new media is Stacy. Sapple. Stacy Sapple? Yeah, right right. She's really nice. Yeah, she's got a Internet or CD ROM or some sort of new media company going. She's around, she's really sweet. Oh, yeah, she's working for an art space. She's like an artist's soft, OK, she's making software for artists to keep track of where all there shit is around the world. Like inventory software for artists. Yeah, she's really nice. I see her around all the time. How's Richard? You don't see him? Is that right? Does he still have a gallery? What do mean you don't talk? Why don't you guys talk? You had a falling out? Well, over what? Oh, from the gallery? From his own gallery? And he didn't pay you? Why don't you ask him what's going on? He sounds like he's not very happy I mean what's the what's the problem? And he never responded? Well, why why is he so unhappy with himself? This is obviously not about you. So what's the what's problem? Why is Richard so unhappy that he can't act like an adult? I mean that sounds really crazy. People seem to be so wild but no. You guys go way back. You think his is his gallery not doing well or something? It's safe. Yeah. It's bizarre. He is so weird. I liked him but he was nuts he was nuts and what about, um? No, we haven't seen him in a really long time his boyfriend had AIDS, Frank. Uh, he went to Europe to die, I guess. Yeah, his wife lives in France they have good health care but it's, you know, it's really sad. I mean, I in the back long ago. I haven't heard from Rachel in years. I don't know where she is. How's she doing? She isn't really a presence in New York anymore. What? Yeah yeah. It's sad. _____________ Ah, but it's weird I was just saying to Cheryl because Gary was one thing I always loved about him was that he would talk about how important for an artist to to grow and never get caught in that rut and it looks like he's really caught in his rut and, you know, he's always been a really good artist but it's sort of sad to see him trapped by his by his own sort of artworld sense of success, you know, so I'm sorry he's not pushing it he's not pushing his work any further but no I don't see him. But Rachel so is like she hanging out with she was with that guy. A new one? I remember she was here a few years ago with this guy who seemed pretty nice. This guy from Connecticut or something. I summons all those people now it's just unhealthy man it's just way too much drinking going on with that group really fucking killing themselves. Keith and Rachel that's their scene was way too self-destructive, you know, it really it really, uh, that was going down the tubes, man. Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons we kind of Cheryl and I kind of pulled away from scenes because it was just too it was way nihilistic and we were just not there. We're like really stable, we're really married, you know, and it's, you know. Yeah yeah yeah. We do do what we need to do but I mean, we're really not party. You know, we're just working, we're just working. One thing about writing is that you know you don't really work for anything. You just continue to work. You know, you don't with art with art it was like you always kinda like always had these really weird deadlines for shows and, eh, this is for me writing is is like is just part of my life, something I just do like I do anything else, you know, I used to do that with art but it's different in that there's no real goal, you know, you finish a book publish it, whatever. It's a really a really different pace, I like it, I really like it. I like that it's not tied to the, uh, economic structure of the art world. No, I mean I'm working, you know, Cheryl and I just work. I do computer stuff, I do Internet. Uh, no more of that thing I do some Internet stuff, yeah, which I don't mind, you know, I mean certainly you can't, yeah, I like that show, yeah, you can't you can't, uh, you know you can't like like art when I was an artist I could hang in my studio, you know, for ten hours, you know, just coloring in coloring in letters or carving letters or, you know, and and and now I, you know, you can't certainly I can't write for 8 hours at a stretch. It's really quite nice. You can't you can't do computer. I can work on the computer for days, I mean, I really love the computer. Yeah. She has had a hell of a time finding a teaching job it's been really, unfortunately, because last year she went away to Tennessee to Knoxville she's that's been her resume on it. There's no jobs. There's just no jobs. She's a really good teacher and she's subbed all over and she cannot get herself a job teaching. It's really a. Yeah. Yeah she yeah, right, a lot of people teach out there but here it's really really hard I mean she's been doing some art lecture gigs, you know, going around doing some lectures on her work which is good. But, she's been doing computer stuff also, I mean, like Quark, so. So anyway I started I started by saying that we're not, like, oh considering what we're doing we're not, like, hanging out on any major scenes or partying. We're just working. Pretty good. So listen, I gotta get back.