Good morning, how ya doin'?Yep. Wait a second, I have my ticket. O.K. There you go. Thanks. See you soon. Oh oh oh, I thought you said "Have a good weekend..." Oh, O.K. Have a good week. See you later. How you doin? Alright, alright. Two, please. You don't want to save that for four or is it OK?. Do you have any newspapers lying around? I'll just have a coffee to start. Thanks. O.K., babe. O.K. How ya doin'? Uh huh. Regular. I'll take regular this time. Did you go all the way back to the gallery? You're sweating. That's good--it's good for you. Oh, thanks. Yeah, of course. Everybody knows that guy. He's sort of...sort of famous. I saw a bunch of these actually on the racks. At a coffee shop. They're out and in the world, which is pretty neet. That's cool and I like that. Very Cool. We've gotta get a poster. I don't know, I don't know. I was told by people there was a poster there. Yeah, I know. That's why you can't take publicity too seriously. Yeah, maybe other people do--they love publicity. So, have you been sleeping? No, don't worry--your life will change. Be assured, your life will change. Sure. Sure. So I'm told. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh John, do you know what you want? I do. I'd like the uh, pancakes, uh short sounds good. A little more coffee and some water. Has Karin been out of the house? That's right you guys had an opening. Well, I heard it last Sunday. It's really nice that all the artists came over. Yeah. I thought that was really cool. I mean, we all came over at the same time. I thought that was very hip. Good move. That means you only have to tell the stories once. Bitter? You want some milk? How was your opening? This is the paintings. And what is the artist's name? And where is she from? Regular. Thanks. Worse than me? Isro. Sure. Did you see that article on Mason Reese in the paper? Wasn't that depressing? Ohhh. Yeah, I mean it's also like the, I mean, it's also like the Danny Partridge, what's his name? The Danny Partridge story? Yeah, but it was really sad. But the best one was that little retarded black kid. No, no. The one from, you know, the one from...he was adopted into that family--the white. He's really short and he went off to rob dry cleaners. Right, OK, right. What was the name of that show. Anyways...Yeah, I mean, it was on in the early 80s and I wasn't watching T.V. then. Yeah, Willis. Right. Right. And I can't remember the name, either onstage or off of the short guy. Gary Coleman and the girl was Kitten? But she robbed a store. At any rate... Eddie Van Halen? Remember Valerie Bertinelli like when she was like on T.V. when we were kids and when she first came on T.V. I had a real crush on her? Something like that. Yeah, she was very adorable. You know, I think the latest incarnation is Winona Ryder. Oh well. Phoebe Cates had plenty of sexuality. Yeah. Yeah. It's the best scene of any movie, I think. And I love Drew Barrymore. I think she's... no she was not in that. She was not in that... Naw. No. I don't know that. Thanks. Who? Oh no. Obviously they censored that. Was she wearing a bra? Oh, I see. OK. So anyway, we were gonna yak about some art stuff. Um, Can I get a water? Thanks, it's alright. Well, first off, um, I finished my book that I've been working on for three years and I'm really happy that it's done. Completely. Well, it's been seen as some kind of a weird side-project. He wanted to make three cases where the writing has, is the activity. So, I mean it's, I I can't define that book. Sometimes I think it's a big book of poetry, sometimes I think it's a reference book, sometimes I think it's a conceptual art piece. You know, it never, I haven't been able to pin it yet, really and it's, and it's flowed in and out of different contexts, like, I believe that the book, when Geoff publishes it will be received by the poetry world, by the writing world that I'm involved with. You know, like 73 Poems--it got really juiced in the music world we got major juice. We got really major juice in the literary world also from a great top critic. And, of course the art, the way that thing toured and got, you know, a mountain of press. It seemed to me that it did well on those three fronts as well. So I think that what I'm saying it that I can't, you know, I I can't, like, deny any aspect of my production which includes you...Maybe you're right, maybe you're right, but maybe you're right you know but, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's see, um, in some ways it wasn't that important to me. In some ways the show was important to you. Was it important to you? What's important? Like isn't what's important to one what is important? Yeah, well, you've got a good point there. I wish, in my heart, that I could live by my words. You know, what I said to you a minute ago. You know, I get, you know, I certainly, I certainly, major bouts and fits reacting to and against whatever whatever things. Maybe it's the artworld, maybe it the literary world, you know, I really I really wish I could flow you know you know that I like to talk about. And I think at that time I kind of I really don't like the context of the show. I really don't care ‘cause you know it's like being it represents everything, um, I really hate about multi multiculturalism you know black artists showing in a black show. You know, I mean it really reeks of all that stuff that I despise like like _________. And I also kind of felt that it would, to tell you the truth also, it wasn't you know a particularly significant piece that I made I thought, you know, it just seemed like a little drawing you know it didn't I don't know well, it was several things...Well I I kind of feel like when I was like... Yeah, O.K., got it got it got it. Now that's that's a good point. Because, you know, my head also was so into this book for the last while that there you know there was I was it's so incredibly self-sufficient there was no need to show up in general. You know it's been so really really self-sufficient in that thing. It seemed like there was no commercial value so in other words the only the only and I the only work that I wanted to do was to keep A.G. and Geoff's interest up and I did that work. No, no you know I did that work because I wasn't gonna lose this opportunity to get this fucking thing published. You know when I you know you know it's the same thing when I want something you know we've always been able to kind of take care of that. The fact is at some level, you know, over the last while I haven't really wanted that much--like I have what I've wanted and I didn't need to get out there and and and do these things, you know. The fact, you know, this stuff snowballing into the Art In America article I mean without the show that we did the Art In America article never would have happened. Right? And it was really great and you know at the time I I I kind of made these things and I made them, you know, from my heart I mean they were real. I wasn't making them for a show, you know, I was just making them. And you know the fact that we that we ended up you know showing them and then all the you know kind of subsequent attention, if not critical anyway commercial attention for this work leading you know leading up to that article you know was really you know was really was really amazing and I'm really glad I did that without that you know I mean it was a good thing. Um, you know I don't really know I don't really know you know I sometimes feel like like you know if my work has made this kind of a turn you know and it's been a turn not so much against you guys, um, but against kind of the gallery system because I really felt like the last piece at your show, like I said in that talk you know it just was fuckin' you know it just just nobody got it you know it just really went over people's heads and I was pissed--I'm still pissed I'm still really pissed at people's inability in the artworld to handle reading and language I'm really you know and I could say easily just say fuck it. It just happens that Raphael's a poet and a sensitive guy and got tuned into this. You know but you know? I'm still pissed. It didn't sell, it didn't get any any any attention it just you know completely got lost and it was a good piece and I still believe that it was a really really excellent piece. You know it did things with language but it was too, um, linguistically and I think intellectually ambitious for the artworld. You know? I I know it. They could handle it when it was three panels they got it it was enough but when it went to 6 panels or 8 panels it was too much. You know I mean I can't tell you how many people have told me that they've seen the article but how many people have actually read the article? It's the same it's the same situation. You know and it's not my interest, you know. My interest is really really seriously involved with language I mean Raphael really hit it. Yeah, so it's kind of you know I'm I'm still pissed about it, really. I'm not making really visual work because I'm not really interested in those issues and I always thought that the artworld was a place that was big enough to accept you know a piece like I showed at your gallery last time and Cheryl was just so funny. She you know when we were coming home we saw these cards Cheryl says "Make an image" you know it get reproduced up and down. I said "Yeah, I'm an asshole. I should have been making images all these years! Imagine how much play I would have gotten--I make one image and look what hap you know look what happens." You know you know it was all ironical, of course you know um you know I mean I realize that I'm going upstream and it's not... Yeah, yeah right. Yeah. I know it. I know it. I know it. You know. It is. Image World, Image World. Right, remember that show? In a way I'm really reacting against that in a way because like I happen to think that that's a misnomer you know in a way language is so abundant you know I mean words... Yeah, yeah I'm not interested in that. Yeah but but but look at this. There's many more words in this than there are pictures in this newspaper. Um, I think well I don't I don't know. And the other thing is like it's language. Look at what we're doing now, we're talking. You know how much language is being slung around this room right now? And what's radio? Radio is nothing but language you know? Yeah but that's a fallacy that's a fallacy. With my work, you never had to do that. But people never understood that, of course and it's still, a 600 page book you cannot read this thing cover front to back. But that but that was that was my whole project forever has been to turn that convention on it's ear you know it really has been. My work has been unlike any other text art it's always been really accessible it's always been easy to come and go because I agree with you on that level, I mean, this book man, I had to read this thing through twice start to finish to proofread it -- it's unreadable! It's you know it's the kind of book that you might leave your on the back of your toilet and when you're taking a shit you pick it up, catch something so that you'll never find that again because there's so much goddamned language in there. It's not meant to be read linearly--none of my work is. And that's the other part that really pissed me off about the artworld because they just saw text and it was dismissed as if it was a 1971 Joseph Kosuth piece. So they're reading it interpreting it visually. Anyway, I'm not gonna really you know I'm not there's no way I'm gonna you know you know I wanna really change what I'm doing and... But what if I don't think the book would make a terrific art show. I don't know. Karin once said, she was so sweet, ‘cause Karin's just trying to be so supportive and I love her for it she says "We should just put the book on a pedestal in the middle of the gallery!" No no no no no! It is. It is. Naw. Yeah. It was beautiful. It was a really striking installation. It was. Yeah. But but. Yeah. Right. No no. Here's a here's a new project I'm working on. OK? I'm taking a leap of language. I'm recording everything I'm saying say for an entire week. I mean it no, I'm always taking about the volume of language that's around I mean what what would your language look like if it was if you collected every piece of shit word you that you said for an entire week. Yeah and what would it look like and you know what form would it you know it say you just printed it out and put it in a big stack and it's a visual representation of all the crap that you speak all week. That see therevisual representation of language. It may not be exciting but it's a great concept it's you know it could in other words that could be I could take the language that I record myself speaking all week no one else speaking, just the shit that I spew myself and think "Now, how could I represent this visually differently?" That's raw material. How could that be represented you know if every word of language was a drop of water and I counted it out and dropped it into a glass would this represent my language for a week? You know how many jellybeans in the jar kind of thing. You know that could be a really you know and I could have different representations of that week's language in different forms as visual. Well there could be yeah or or just just equivalents: how many words do we speak in a week and what is the meaning of them? You know it be could every drop fill a glass of water for every language I spoke? That kind of thing, I mean I think that that kind of raw material could be flowed into something really really interesting visually in the gallery. It would be you know I mean that's I still have what I'm saying is that I still have gallery ideas. To put this book in the gallery would be dumb but to do a reading--a 24 hour reading of the book in the gallery would be interesting. I would never subject people to walk into a gallery--it's pretentious--and they see a goddamned book in it. Take the book home and read it! You know or put it on your toilet or put it on your shelf. Exactly! And that's the kind of thing that I've kind of been feeling like this book that I'm writing it was really meant for the book. It was a reaction against the gallery you know it was really meant for the page. I could fill up this six, I could fill up as much disc space as I wanted to without having to worry about the cost of production you know without worrying about how it looks--I worry didn't have to worry about "How does the language look?" That was a relief for me too and I could just keep going until I had enough. And it wouldn't cost me anything you know and it and it wouldn't get bogged down in the kind of bummed out you know I'm you know selling this I'm not selling that which you know I've certainly been privy to over the years. And this you know was amazing liberating. Now I don't know if want to stay there but I kind of what I want to say is think is that I'd really just like to keep the door open and I'd like to like not I'd like to apologize for the hostility because I get carried away in a romanticism and, um, if it's certainly never directed, uh I wouldn't say never, but it's it's not generally directed at you guys but it's I'm flailing I'm I'm pissed I'm pissed at a lot of stuff you know. I mean you know it's just just the way it is, what can I say? Uh, I'm I'm I'm conflicted a lot because God knows I've loved the limelight and the attention but there's a whole other side of me that that digs the complete solitude and real you know I'm completely you know Gemini I'm completely split on on these these ways you know, um but you know I'd like you know keep the door open because I'm I'll never stop making art you know never and I don't really uh care to have kind of a mainstream art thing at this point I don't think it's interesting I'd rather just continue to spin off strange productions you know unconventional production if you guys are up for that you know? It's a book, yeah. Let's not let let's definitely not put on a pedestal. You know A.G. wants to fund a a really nice edition of it as well as a a fifteen dollar paperback you know piece of shit edition. It it what it didn't happen for for Dan Weiner's stuff? Right. Well, I mean, you know at White Columns I sold a signed manuscript of that book. I think it went for over a hundred bucks you know which was pretty pretty you know I mean we're talking shit but it's also... I I I I printed out all six hundred pages of the book and I gave it to the White Columns benefit and they sold it you know. I just printed the damned thing out and I signed it and you know I mean it was you know I... Yeah. Right. Yeah. No no no. You know I mean it's just a book man, it's usually fifteen bucks, I thought that was a good deal you know I mean the other thing is you know I'm working now you know I've got this I mean I've got this pretty interesting Internet business going. You know I don't mind doing that you know I actually really like it you know it's really I don't mind working because it's because it's it's interesting as an artist artists really need time in their studios to sand and paint and sketch and I used to need all the time in the world to fill those letters in but I can't write ten hours a day the way I used to fill in letters. So I've got all this time on my hands so I got you know so I started working and this you know nice Internet thing going. You wanna go you got time you wanna run over? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll show ya. But but. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Oh you've got to come over. You've got to come over. Oh OK. Yeah. What do you have? Do you have Windows 95? Oh. So you just have you've got MSN, right? So just get on MSN that's fine. They they do a good job. So what happens? Does the modem turn on? Oh, do you have an MSN account? Oh oh well it's just just double click on it and then open up your Internet Explorer browser. And then once yeah it's the same thing just double click on that and open up your browser and you're on the Internet. OK, I'll show ya. But any rate what I'm saying is like you know I've been working you know I don't mind you know I don't mind not you know selling things--I mean it's nice to sell things but oh you know I, uh, you know the fact that I'm not doesn't bother me you know I I think a lot of artists that are that are really you know that are much more invested into that system than I am would really flip out if they had to I know do what I'm doing. I don't mind. Um you know I mean I think that I think the goddamned Jewish Museum should buy this thing after all the after all the hype. Maybe we should just donate it. Yeah, maybe we should just donate it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah maybe not. I don't think anybody else is going to buy to buy the stuff. So let's just let's just--whoa!--let's just um...Well I mean if they want it that bad what what there must be some money to buy it but they don't want it that bad or? They don't collect contemporary? No. Yeah. Um. Yeah, and I just, you know, yeah I mean this was her big this was her big coup this you know this Jewish Museum thing you know this was her this was her this was her big you know uh...whatever, ah, whatever I mean whatever. I'm really I'm actually end up being really feeling kind of happy about, um, I'm uh, you know all this stuff I I like all this stuff um...let's see, this should be plenty, uh. Um, well, I actually have a great meeting, um, I'm having lunch with, uh, one of the most powerful literary critics you know in the in academia in the country. It's her, Marjorie Perloff and, uh, I'm meeting her actually at the MOMA Members Dining Room for lunch today. And she's deeply powerful and I'm going to get her, I hope, to write a blurb for the back of my book and promote it. It should I'm very you know I'm really excited about having lunch with her. She's in from Stanford so that's what I'm doing today. And tonight I'm going to a party for John Newman. He's a nice guy actually, he's a really nice guy. He really is, yeah. Yeah, he shows at, uh, really formal sculpture. Yeah, something like that. I mean, It's very formal. It's very formal work. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. And he's, I mean, he's turns out to be a really nice guy, um, and he's having a a party tonight and then after that ada ‘web, which is a big art Internet place is having a party after that. Yeah. Yeah. No no no because they're having they're at the Video Viewpoints at the MOMA talking about Cyberspace so afterwards this they're having this huge party at, uh, 23rd street. Um, and, uh, you know. Thanks. Um so anyway, it's like this parties galore tonight, uh, today I've got lots of just meetings and shit with people. But anyway, so let's just like keep the door open, you know, I mean, you know...I mean, I really wish that would happen. That would that would I mean, I'd do it I'd do it in a heartbeat because, you know, I could... what ever happened with that? Very fifties. Oh right right right. Yeah. Yeah. Well that, you know, and and it you can know that you're jumping and not jump you know and not and not right and I know you know what you're doing and not...well, I mean it's something like that it's something like that worked out it would be, it would be really cool. I'm going to my studio, um, you know, something like that would be really, you know, I would I would definitely be up for it you know I don't mind, but you know what as art I'm not going to be be doing that stuff, I mean I just can't, I'm just so fucking fried on that shit I If I ever had if I had to color in another letter I'd go out and kill someone. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Naw, naw, naw. All right, listen, this is all right and I apologize and I think your point is really well taken about about if you say you're gonna do it you got to do it. I'm with you on that and and we'll just kind of keep things keep things open. OK, babe. I'll I'll drop by a manuscript. And listen, the book will be out this summer. If people wanna know, you know, Geoff's book will be out this summer, fall very latest. I don't know, uh, you're gonna be...yeah, in June or something, yeah, yeah, we'll work on it. See you, John. Yeah. Yeah. Is he a nice guy? Yeah. Um, all right. Let's see. Let's see. So, what are you doing today? Is she making good work?